New Information Has Arrived Today (18 Oct 2013), please look in the comments.
Today we finally get a dev blog regarding one of the new deployable modules that CCP is proposing in Rubicon. Here is the rundown of what it can do:
- Rubicon will have one Mobile Siphon Unit. This will be a small version (20 m³), so carrying one, or even several, is not much of a constraint for most ships.
- The unit will have a BPO available in NPC stations. There is no tech II variant. Prices and material components are still being worked on, but should be in a ballpark of 10 million.
- Siphon units are deployed the same as other personal deployables, where you just need to deploy, there is no anchoring or onlining. Once deployed, a siphon unit cannot be scooped up again. The name of the player that deployed the siphon unit is visible in Show Info.
- Siphon units must be deployed close to a POS, outside of shields to a maximum distance of 50 kilometers from the control tower.
- Siphon units can be attacked and accessed with impunity, there are no criminal or suspect flags involved.
- Siphon units are not automatically attacked by POS guns. Players can take manual control of POS guns to shoot at a siphon unit.
- Siphon units have an EHP around 50-100k (exact numbers to be decided).
- The Small Mobile Siphon Unit in Rubicon can steal raw material (from Moon Harvester Arrays) and processed material (from Simple Reactor Arrays). It will prioritize raw material over processed material if both are available. It cannot steal alchemy output.
- The stealing happens on the production cycles (once per hour). What is stolen comes from the production, thus items in storage are never stolen directly.
- A siphon unit can only steal from the end of a chain. For example, if a POS has a two Moon Harvester Arrays that are both connected (through a Coupling Array/Silo) to an active Simple Reactor Array, then only the output from the Simple Reactor Array can be stolen. A siphon unit steals from a single chain each production cycle, so it cannot for instance steal both raw material and processed material at the same time.
- The Small Mobile Siphon Unit can steal 60 units of raw material or 25 units of processed material.
- It has a capacity of 1200 m³. If it is full, it stops stealing. Anybody can access the storage and take from it. It is not possible to put items into the storage. When you select a siphon unit, a bar shows you how full the unit is.
- More than one siphon unit can be deployed around the same POS. They steal in the order they were deployed.
- Siphon units also have a waste factor (assumed to be lost in transit). This wastes (destroys) a portion of what is stolen. The waste factor for the Small Mobile Siphon Unit is 20%.
- They are scanable by D-Scan and by Probes.
- Give false API information to the POS owner.
Wow! Awesome right! Now the little guy can stick it to the big guy.. including the biggest guy GOONSWARM, RIGHT! Right?
Not so fast. There is a few problems. First, let’s go with the rate of siphoning as compared to how much you pay for the unit.
- Current price of small Siphon Unit: $10,000,000 isk.
- Rate of Siphon: Roughly 60 units per hour or 23 hours to fill 1200m3.
- Price of Dysprosium: 50,000 isk per unit.
- Total Haul for full 24 hour Siphon: $60,000,000 isk.
- Total Grand Profit of $50 million isk.
Ooo.. free 60mil isk right? And you can deposit it anywhere you want right? Well, let’s think about this a little more clearly. Let’s think of the other points we have to consider:
- While it looks easy on paper, let’s look at what will probably happen. The big alliances are going to know this is coming out and are going to step up their patrols. Since it takes a long time for a siphon to work and there is no lock on the door, they can remove the loot and destroy at their leisure.
- This leaves only two profitable targets: Small and Solo Corp Industrialists and Well insulated Null-sec Alliances. Both of which are more prone to ignorance, laziness, and human cycles of sleep. Considering how easy it is to install the Siphon, how many can be applied, and how relatively difficult they are to remove, you are going to see Small and Solo Corp industrials be driven out of Moon Goo operations. So that is a limited source of profit there, which will disappear in about six months time. On the flip-side the profitable and softer targets in deep null-sec are difficult and time consuming to get to. Likely the only ship you will use will be the Blockade Runner, which limits you to about 5000m3 with a single cargo expander.
- Now, even if you assume that all the richest R64 Moons are together, the most siphons you will drop is five because you are absolutely limited by the cargo space of your Blockade Runner.
- Grand profit after looting each day: 250,000,000 isk, minus the 50,000,000 isk for the Siphons. Not really all that great if you travel back and forth a few hours each trip. And only if no one steals from it or destroys it. All the while you are likely going to risk at least a Blockade Runner each trip, every 24 hours, back and forth.
So, really not a super profitable enterprise, and one with a surprising amount of risk. Because of this, you probably aren’t going to see too many folks really make it a venture. I see where it might be possible, with some significant support.. but even that will attract some attention and cause problems. But, nonetheless there is an option for some enterprising individuals to stick it “to the man.”
Siphon In Use
The More Important Problem
However, the second problem with the current Siphon setup is very, very huge. It is so huge that a CSM member and multiple Goonswarm members have pointed out, in VERY specific terms, what Goonswarm would do if the Siphon Unit was released as is. The problem is based on two points mentioned above:
- More than one siphon unit can be deployed around the same POS. They steal in the order they were deployed.
- Siphon units also have a waste factor (assumed to be lost in transit). This wastes (destroys) a portion of what is stolen. The waste factor for the Small Mobile Siphon Unit is 20%.
Now, while most coalitions may not have the manpower, leadership, and organization to exploit these two points, Goonswarm absolutely does. You see, since they cost only 10mil isk a piece they are easy for Goonswarm to produce and distribute “en masse”. For Goonswarm to effectively use it to manipulate prices (which they will), all they need to do is drop multiple siphons on critical POS moon operations.
The 20% loss off of each siphon alone, at such a scale, would certainly affect the price of moon goo. The problem many people have is the belief that Goonswarm would have to sell the moon goo. This is not true at all. All they need to do is restrict it, which a massive and organized distribution of Siphons would create. Goonswarm doesn’t even have to keep the moon goo at all. They could destroy it or even just give it to their minions for later sale when prices go up. They proved their ability to do this with the Gallente Ice Interdiction and the Burn Jita operation. Such an operation would bring untold trillions into Goonswarm coffers.
Consider too, what the mass deployment of the Siphon unit against a specific alliance could do? In a war between two small or medium size alliances, the effect would be minimal. But suppose you gave that power to a massive and well organized coalition? Opposing alliances would fall within days against a foe like Goonswarm with unregulated Siphons destroying a major portion of their alliance’s income, while at the same time able to jack up the prices for their own allies for enhanced sales. Even Goonswarm members think this is TOO powerful.
And as much as I dislike what Goonswarm is, I cannot disagree with them in this. As much as I would LOVE to see Goonswarm and other major coalitions squirm at the thought of thousands of freelancers taking away their moon goo.. this Siphon Unit simply will not be used in the way CCP had intended.
Conclusion
The current Siphon is far, far too powerful in the hands of an organized force like Goonswarm, who can command thousands of pilots to disperse these siphons like chaff and can easily afford to do so. Nevertheless, I think it is a great idea and would love to see this module in use, but limited to just one per POS. This would make it a tool for small organization, while not making it so devastatingly powerful as to crush all who are not rich enough to stop it. Hopefully CCP will make this change.
I think you’re off-base here. When Aryth, Mynnna and Weaselior all post within the first 2 pages of a change the Goon Finance team is in full-on panic mode. The Goons are not looking forward to this in the slightest.
It’s a big buff to cloaky campers. It’s really hard for big nullsec empires to stop camps. Worse (from a Nullbear perspective) that neut in local could be a hauler but he could be eyes for a blops gang. He could even be both!
Now Goons run reactions as private enterprises conducted by alt corps. Usually one person. So the person who is being stolen from is one person and needs sleep just as much as anyone else.
It’s always been horribly hard to motivate pvpers to do defensive patrols. In fact as a cloaky even if they do do defensive patrols all you have to do is wait and they’ll stop. “Let’s roam our own space for 2 hours and not get any kills so some rich bastard can get even richer while you waste time” is a hard sell.
I think these things will prove to be major conflict drivers with big fights exploding out of a skirmish or hotdrop on a siphon unit.
As much as I wish that were the case, I see nothing in the design of the Siphon that would prevent Goons using them as a total domination weapon. None. The price of 10 million isk isn’t prohibitive by any means. And their players certainly know how to follow orders. And let’s be honest, they’ve got great leaders who can get things done.
Had this mobile unit been put in game during, say, the BoB/Goon war, yeah no problem as is. But right now, right now Goons simply have too much income for them not to use this as a mass effect weapon. The problem is that you are looking at it as a typical null-sec player, who never saw the fruits of any of the structure grinds that we went through. Killing a POS, station, etc, had no benefit to us personally. This is also a reason by it will be very effective as a mass weapon against many large alliances. The Ship Replacement programs and Sov costs often rely on Moon Goo to pay for those features. Now, it would only take about 3-4 to fully drain a POS every cycle. Goons would not need to get “every” moon, just figure out the critical ones an alliance holds which would be very easy. Instead of drop 3-4 however, let’s say they drop 10, or 20 even. Then waiting for enemy to structure bash through those and the next day they drop another 10 or 20 right back on top of them. To do that you would only need a ship with 200 to 400m3 of cargo capacity. Something easily done.
Granted, it possibly could work in that manner with Goons, except for the fact that Goons also have supplimental incomes that would keep the more painful financial woes at bay for a considerable time. On those who oppose Goons, it would require considerable coordination, patience, and determination not to let up. Yes, it COULD be done. But, it would require the very same attributes that Goonswarm is known for displaying effectively in war and I don’t think any other alliance or coalition is a.) Large enough, or b.) is disciplined enough to pull it off at the level it would need to happen for it to be both a serious threat to Goons, but also able to weather the response (which would be extremely vicious) that would come from Goons.
The unlimited number of dropped syphons is tricky. Limiting it to 1 or 2 would help but dropping 10-20 would in result no more waste than the maximum stuff. As they would fill up in order of drop the later will just stay empty.
In order to kill a Syphon on a pos you are at you only have to activate the pos guns on it.
The great problem is with unpopulated systems with good moons but nothing else. Those could be raided with cov-Ops gangs without anyone seeing it. Patrols are needed to keep that systems clear and that in general isn’t a bad idea.
And I don’t know whether goons get the drive to do regular patrols. Sometimes yes, but will they keep that effort up? Or will the activity drop in this as it is boring?
CCP needs to monitor the use of it and balance it fast if needed.
New Information from CCP SoniClover:
“Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we’re contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.”
Having sat through Java’s “Keeping the Light On” presentation at the end of EVE Vegas Day 1, I have to go with Orakkus on this one. The Gewns have an EXTREMELY powerful web-management tool in Region Commander, and their “defensive” strategy vs the moon siphons was to use API calls to see if there were variances in the amount of goo being pulled. BUT, since API calls will return a false value, well there goes that. Java said plain as day that they’re just going to have to increase random checks on their POSes and blast any siphons they find.
As for the offensive aspect, Gewns don’t need to use the siphons, tbh. If anything, they may use them as a distraction, or a “fuck you” sign, but it sounds like in the end it won’t really affect their overall offensive strategy — they’ll simply roll in and pop the hostile POSes, as always.
Overall I think Orakkus is right in that it has a LOT more potential to be used against smaller entities than large, well-organized entities. But isn’t that how EVERYTHING in EVE works, pretty much? Larger, betterl-organized forces are tougher nuts to crack in virtually every way, why would this be an exception?
“BUT, since API calls will return a false value, well there goes that. Java said plain as day that they’re just going to have to increase random checks on their POSes and blast any siphons they find.”
Yes, right, they will just do some random checks and blast them. That is exactly what ALL pos users are needed to do. Yes, Goons are very good organized and they earn credits for that. I’m sure they can deploy tools to help there members organize space patrols to look for these little things.
But vast space comes with long patrols needed. I don’t know how it currently is but with this threat lingering in space we might end up seeing a lot more small to medium fleets patrolling an area and providing targets for other small to medium gangs.
If it is used to hurt the small entity (and it surely will) those guys have the advantage of not having that much space to control. Bring in your ~5-10 POS-Gunners and shoot the structures while save in the bubble.
So how long before goons come up with a bot pos gunner that is programmed to only shoot siphon units, and they start leaving an alt POS gunner at every moon goo POS?
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I am no expert on POS mechanics, but can’t you set your POS guns to autofire on certain corporations? That would at least force the droppers to use out-of-corps alts or at least risk a fair amount of fire when dropping these off.
I agree that there isn’t much money for the little guy here, but it might lead to a side profession of cruising in blockade runner and looking for siphons on d-scan. You can just collect whatever you find on your route.
Yes, but that doesn’t show two problems: 1.) it may not be an enemy who is dropping the siphon, and 2.) POS modules are very slow to lock, and small ships can easily evade those modules.
As one of the little guys my first thought on siphons was it might be fun to load up a few blockade runners full of siphons and drop them all over Goon space.
I wouldn’t bother emptying them either, the “waste” factor alone would make it worthwhile. In fact it wouldn’t surprise me if some Goon rank and file members would decide not to destroy siphons but rather start removing the contents daily for their own personal profit.